Clarification without attack - brand bidding

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Old 12-08-2009, 08:42 AM
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Default Clarification without attack - brand bidding

Hey all,

It seems the brand bidding discussion is quite confused. Im just a moldy dish and don’t know much about what the real argument concerns here and I know there are others coming to this forum who find the same problem. Im wondering if its possible for people in the brand bidding discussion to help new comers to affiliate marketing by writing up a few paragraphs on what type of parameters they would like applied to brand bidding?

Is it possible to have a sort of thread (just perhaps this thread only if you wish) where one person writes something and the next person doesn’t argue but then just writes their perspective? No quoting the other – just a thread where independent view points are given without reference to anyone else? A special thread of statements no arguments.

I can see that the interpretation of brand bidding creates problems here so I realise that finding an interpretation first won’t actually work in this case as it usually would in other cases. It seems the best way for people reading the brandbidding posts to recognise the standpoint of people such as Newbie, BCL, Ikonic, Shopping King and Firefly (the main discussers ) would be if each wrote a few paragraphs on their perspective without mentioning anyone else or arguing with anyone else.

Could people in the brand bidding discussion write on the limits or expansion they would like to see to bidding and include something on the pros and cons? Could the write up leave out any mention of anyone else on the forum and be quite general and polite?

If it’s not possible then of course this thread just gets buried. If it is possible then for the sake of readers please participate.

The three rules of the thread would be as follows:

1. Post a statement on what you believe should be limits to bidding on brands (or part brands with the same inference) and also write any pros and cons you find in brand bidding.

2. Don’t actually quote anyone preceding you – this is your own statement and bares no reliance on anyone elses perspective. Your post needs no reference to any arguments. Just your perspective.

3. Don’t mention any other members of the forum either straight forwardly or by inference.

If those in the brand bidding discussion could do this perhaps those of us reading your posts in all the other threads can understand where you are coming from.

Moldy Dish

ps I realise people may not be able to participate in such a thread without arguing with others but it would be great if they could give it a try

Last edited by Moldydish; 12-08-2009 at 08:45 AM..
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Old 12-08-2009, 08:46 AM
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So to reiterate, the three rules would be:


1. Post a statement on what you believe should be limits to bidding on brands (or part brands with the same inference) and also write any pros and cons you find in brand bidding.

2. Don’t actually quote anyone preceding you – this is your own statement and bares no reliance on anyone elses perspective. Your post needs no reference to any arguments. Just your perspective.

3. Don’t mention any other members of the forum either straight forwardly or by inference.

If those in the brand bidding discussion could do this perhaps those of us reading your posts in all the other threads can understand where you are coming from.

Moldy Dish
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Old 12-08-2009, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Moldydish View Post
So to reiterate, the three rules would be:


1. Post a statement on what you believe should be limits to bidding on brands (or part brands with the same inference) and also write any pros and cons you find in brand bidding.

2. Don’t actually quote anyone preceding you – this is your own statement and bares no reliance on anyone elses perspective. Your post needs no reference to any arguments. Just your perspective.

3. Don’t mention any other members of the forum either straight forwardly or by inference.

If those in the brand bidding discussion could do this perhaps those of us reading your posts in all the other threads can understand where you are coming from.

Moldy Dish
Aaaaah Moldy Dish.

Welcome

I think I remember Paul talking about the "mouldy dishes" so you certainly have friends here.

Check these links - I am not vouching for them as authoritative but maybe they will give you something to start from. In particular, read this from the first link:

"When Google announced the changes, many assumed the amount of Internet search traffic that brand owners receive from searches for their own trademarked brand terms would decrease because competitors and affiliates could now bid on these terms. Indeedour own analysis of the differences between the UK and US markets seemed to point in that direction. In fact, there was only a tiny decrease - from 91.8% to 91.3% - in traffic to brand owners’ websites from searches for their own brand names following the changes."

Hitwise Intelligence - Robin Goad - UK

This one makes the case that merchant’s lose share of branded searches when there is no PPC brandbidding.

Hitwise Intelligence - Robin Goad - UK

Hitwise Intelligence - Robin Goad - UK
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:02 AM
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Thanks Newbie but the point of this thread is to get members perspective on brand bidding without reference to other members perspective. Lets say its an experimental statement thread - no arguments with others no reference to others perspectives.

The reason for this is that anyone reading all the posts on Brand bidding to date will be confused about the perspectives and intention behind the posts. I was hoping for something where members would speak about their outlook without it being in response to an argument or conflict or a matter of competition. Just this one time - just for the new comers
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Moldydish View Post
Thanks Newbie but the point of this thread is to get members perspective on brand bidding without reference to other members perspective. Lets say its an experimental statement thread - no arguments with others no reference to others perspectives.

The reason for this is that anyone reading all the posts on Brand bidding to date will be confused about the perspectives and intention behind the posts. I was hoping for something where members would speak about their outlook without it being in response to an argument or conflict or a matter of competition. Just this one time - just for the new comers
...of course, but isn't that exactly what i did for you?

My links are merely references. A discussion of brandbidding without reference to statistical analysis would just be silly.

Brandbidding is a non-argument.

Affiliates move products, products are brands, even non-brands become brands the moment the buyer starts searching for a spare part.

Brandbidding is what affiliates do for a living, PPC or SEO.

My sincere and honest view was formed after weighing all available evidence and researching various opinions on the subject over a period of many years.

My view is that brandbidding is provably beneficial to any merchant, large or small, no matter what segment they operate in.

I hope that you will insist that others provide searchable references to back their claims otherwise the thread will be a waste of space.
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:22 AM
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...of course, but isn't that exactly what i did for you?

My links are merely references. A discussion of brandbidding without reference to statistical analysis would just be silly.

Brandbidding is a non-argument.

Affiliates move products, products are brands, even non-brands become brands the moment the buyer starts searching for a spare part.

Brandbidding is what affiliates do for a living, PPC or SEO.

My sincere and honest view was formed after weighing all available evidence and researching various opinions on the subject over a period of many years.

My view is that brandbidding is provably beneficial to any merchant, large or small, no matter what segment they operate in.

I hope that you will insist that others provide searchable references to back their claims otherwise the thread will be a waste of space.
Your reply is fine Newbie. I dont want to add anymore rules though - some may respond in a way which does not require references and others such as yourself will provide references Thanks - hope there are other participants to this. I think if it can stay as a group of statement posts regarding the posters stance then this thread can itself become a reference point in other discussions.

It will be noticable in itself, I guess, if other people who have been extremely vocal concerning brand bidding on this forum, did not wish to participate in a completely neutral thread on the matter.

Moldy

Last edited by Moldydish; 12-08-2009 at 09:27 AM..
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Moldydish View Post
Your reply is fine Newbie. I dont want to add anymore rules though - some may respond in a way which does not require references and others such as yourself will provide references Thanks - hope there are other participants to this. I think if it can stay as a group of statement posts regarding the posters stance then this thread can itself become a reference point in other discussions.

Mold
Fine. What is your view then, Moldy Dish?
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:33 AM
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Fine. What is your view then, Moldy Dish?
Just a member of the forum trying to understand what those who have been so involved in a brand bidding argument are actually arguing about or what their perspectives are when not under attack. I am really neutral here.

Moldy
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:42 AM
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Just a member of the forum trying to understand what those who have been so involved in a brand bidding argument are actually arguing about or what their perspectives are when not under attack. I am really neutral here.

Moldy
Oh, that is simple.

Enter any brand into google.com.au and examine what you see in the organic search part of the SERP.

Notice that, apart from the corporates, there are two independent affiliates who also compete in this space.

One is prepared to share turf with PPC affiliates in the interests of the common good and the other is not. QED.
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Moldydish View Post
Post a statement on what you believe should be limits to bidding on brands (or part brands with the same inference) and also write any pros and cons you find in brand bidding.
There is a wide range in the use of brands in affiliate marketing which means that there is not an absolute answer that fits every situation. Each case needs to be looked at to work out what is happening, who benefits and how, and the possible consequences.

PPC brandbidding, merchants display URL, affiliates link, looks like the merchants ad. and/or PPC brandbidding, merchants display URL, is the merchants own ad.
- this is primarily designed to catch customers who are already so aware of the merchant and ready to buy that they type in the shops URL/part URL in google. The customers intention is to go to the merchant's site so their most likely action is to click on the first instance of the merchants URL they see.

Who benefits if the affiliate does it? It's the lowest hanging fruit for the ppc affiliate. The merchant will pay them commission on a sale that probably came from the merchant's other marketing efforts, other affiliates, word of mouth or repeat custom. Cookies from content affiliates could get overwritten, thereby taking commission from those affiliates.

Who benefits if the merchant does it? Merchants often do this to "protect their brand" It has the same effect on the customer and is usually much cheaper for the merchant than paying affiliate commission on this sale. It won't affect previously referring content affiliates unless the merchant uses this to override affiliate cookies - either by overwriting the affiliate cookie or by using conditional tracking so the network pixel does not display. (this happens, be wary)

Merchants need to work out what is in their best interests. Many bid on their own name (or use their agency to do this) to ensure that they are at the top especially if there are issues with their SEO listings. Some also prefer to do it themselves so they have more control over the wording of the ads to ensure that it maintains their brand and is not misleading in any way.

Content affiliates weight up the likelihood of their commissions being diverted by a PPC brandbid. This will vary from almost nil for a merchant which tends to convert on the first session to very high on a merchant which tends to covert on a later session especially if their name is difficult to spell.

PPC brandbidding, affiliates/competitors display URL, looks like the affiliates/competitors ad.

- this attempts to divert a customer who is aiming at one site to a different site. Most customers will ignore it (how many people really click on a shopping.com ad)
If the customer does this, they do so knowing that it is not the merchants site they are going to. Many merchants bid on their competitors which many get them a few sales or get them known to customers in that market. It may even have a negative effect on the merchants brand if some customers see it as intrusive. This could be why some merchants forbid affiliates bidding on competitors.

Use of brand names in webpages, domain names, directory/filenames etc.


Unlike PPC, publishing websites that appear in the search engines is not under the affiliate's absolute control. They can try to appear under particular search terms and can often appear under search terms that they never thought of.

Using a merchant's name on a webpage is more like standard advertising. The merchant will want it to be accurate and positive. We always use the merchant's name so the reader knows where we are sending them - particularly on a page where products from several merchants are mentioned. I think this benefits everyone. I find it harder to understand the case for putting www.merchantname.com.au all over the page as this is designed for SEO, not the person reading.

Using a merchant's name in the filename makes sense if it is a page about that merchant. On the other end of the spectrum is a domain that is almost the same could be seen as simply trying to profit off the merchants name. Lots of MFA sites do this.

A customer who searches for www.merchantname.com.au is unlikely to move beyond the merchant's own natural listing (which should always be at the top) down to one of these listings. If anything, they could push negative review pages etc down.

However, a site that targets www.merchantname.com.au COUPON when the merchant offers no coupons is likely to draw the customer down, and also catch the customer who actively searches just in case there is an online coupon. This can cause the merchant to pay out commission unnecessarily or to the wrong affiliate. It can upset customers who think there is a coupon when there isn't. Posting of valid coupons taken from other sites or the merchants newsletter can skew the merchants marketing statistics and cause the merchant to pay out twice (commission to affiliate + discount to customer)

So there aren't any easy answers.

Perhaps the best way to work it out for an affiliate is to ask themselves...
  • Is this providing sales to the merchant that they wouldn't otherwise get? Then do it.
  • Does this fit with the merchants branding? Then do it.
  • Is this misleading the customer in any way in order to get a cookie set? (Don't advertise "cheap widgets" to get someone to click on a link to an expensive widget shop) Then don't do it.
  • Would you be happy to justify this to face-to-face with the merchant? Then do it.
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Old 12-08-2009, 10:02 AM
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Thanks BCL

Moldy Dish

Last edited by Moldydish; 12-08-2009 at 04:49 PM..
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Old 13-08-2009, 11:33 AM
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Its quite easy to figure out who is right and wrong in this debate Moldydish.

Simply read these 2 short links for yourselves.

http://blog.affiliatetip.com/archive...iliates-cheat/

Flaunting Affiliate Network Rules With Blackhat PPC » PPC Blog

I will take the advice of leading experts in the affiliate industry thankyou.
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Old 13-08-2009, 12:07 PM
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Its quite easy to figure out who is right and wrong in this debate Moldydish.

Simply read these 2 short links for yourselves.

http://blog.affiliatetip.com/archive...iliates-cheat/

Flaunting Affiliate Network Rules With Blackhat PPC » PPC Blog

I will take the advice of leading experts in the affiliate industry thankyou.
It is intersting to note, Elizabeth, that these links point to pages more that two years old and cover a topic that has long since been settled in favour of PPC brandbidding on all counts.
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Old 13-08-2009, 12:08 PM
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Its quite easy to figure out who is right and wrong in this debate Moldydish
Please read the OP original request. He wants your opinion on the subject of brand bidding, not that of some blogger(s) who are talking about techniques used for blackhat PPC BB which is completly useless to this and any other discussion you have posted those links in to as a means of supporting your argument that BB is bad.

@moldydish - I will put together my own opinion on the subject shortly but for the sake of things, the ongoing argument on this board is not about PPC BB per se. Its about peoples interpretation of the subject and how that information is passed onto and used by merchants in determining the offers and terms of use for those offers... and its subsequent impact on the Affiliate community as a whole.
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Old 13-08-2009, 12:12 PM
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It is intersting to note, Elizabeth, that these links point to pages more that two years old and cover a topic that has long since been settled in favour of PPC brandbidding on all counts.
LOL, Jim, you still think it's me.
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