Using Brandwords in SEO & building ones pages

This is a discussion on Using Brandwords in SEO & building ones pages within the General Chat forums, part of the Affiliate Marketing category; Hello All, I have been watching another thread on this forum using Brandbidding when doing PPC. http://www.affiliateforum.com.au/for...tracking-1426/ Offering my 2 ...

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Old 10-07-2009, 05:44 AM
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Default Using Brandwords in SEO & building ones pages

Hello All,

I have been watching another thread on this forum using Brandbidding when doing PPC. Affiliate Tracking

Offering my 2 cents, I agree with BCL and these affiliate's on whichever network should be immediately banned once caught.


I would just like to ask everyone’s opinion on whether it is an acceptable/ethical/legal practice in affiliate marketing to heavily include a company’s Brandword (trademark) when doing SEO and building one's pages?

An example would be if I swamped the page with the merchant’s trademark, say over 50 times, maybe even 100 times, I would presumably get higher search engine rankings for this Brandword when searched for.


Is this ok for affiliate's to do and should Affiliate Networks allow this to happen?

I have already formed my own opinion that it is "not" but I am interested in anyone else's opinion on whether this is an acceptable practice or whether affiliates should also be banned for this kind of activity if caught.


All feedback welcomed and please - do not have a go at me for raising what I consider a reasonable question (which seems to be happening on this forum of late thus my new signup name for this question as I do not wish to be targeted by some).

Thanks Shopping King
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Old 10-07-2009, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shopping King View Post
Hello All,

I have been watching another thread on this forum using Brandbidding when doing PPC. Affiliate Tracking

Offering my 2 cents, I agree with BCL and these affiliate's on whichever network should be immediately banned once caught.

I would just like to ask everyone’s opinion on whether it is an acceptable/ethical/legal practice in affiliate marketing to heavily include a company’s Brandword (trademark) when doing SEO and building one's pages?

An example would be if I swamped the page with the merchant’s trademark, say over 50 times, maybe even 100 times, I would presumably get higher search engine rankings for this Brandword when searched for.

Is this ok for affiliate's to do and should Affiliate Networks allow this to happen?

I have already formed my own opinion that it is "not" but I am interested in anyone else's opinion on whether this is an acceptable practice or whether affiliates should also be banned for this kind of activity if caught.

All feedback welcomed and please - do not have a go at me for raising what I consider a reasonable question (which seems to be happening on this forum of late thus my new signup name for this question as I do not wish to be targeted by some).

Thanks Shopping King
Welcome Shopping King,

On the face it the premise seems reasonable but in practice it would be financial hara kari.

Let's look at this search:

babyexpress - Google Search

Ignoring PPC momentarily, remember that there are ten slots on the page and the merchant can only win the top listing.

Removing the ability for affiliates to utilise the merchant's name would drastically shorten a very long tail. Just as importantly, do not forget that if you take away the affiliates from the other nine spaces you are leaving a doorway for your competitors to occupy that space and provide nine alternative sources to buy.

Oh and the PPC affiliate bid? This particular merchant has set no conditions PPC bidding. I think that is very clever because you can see that competitor bids would appear on the top line otherwise. As far as I am aware they are well-informed about the situation and have made a considered decision to do it this way.
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Old 10-07-2009, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by newbie View Post
Welcome Shopping King,

On the face it the premise seems reasonable but in practice it would be financial hara kari.

Let's look at this search:

babyexpress - Google Search

Ignoring PPC momentarily, remember that there are ten slots on the page and the merchant can only win the top listing.

Removing the ability for affiliates to utilise the merchant's name would drastically shorten a very long tail. Just as importantly, do not forget that if you take away the affiliates from the other nine spaces you are leaving a doorway for your competitors to occupy that space and provide nine alternative sources to buy.

Oh and the PPC affiliate bid? This particular merchant has set no conditions PPC bidding. I think that is very clever because you can see that competitor bids would appear on the top line otherwise. As far as I am aware they are well-informed about the situation and have made a considered decision to do it this way.
Thanks for your feedback Newbie - I will certainly take a close look at that link - any others out there care to comment on this, especially merchants.

To Merchants: Would you as a merchant want affiliates heavily bidding on your trademark to appear higher in the rankings given you probably rank number one anyways and would have probably got the sale if this is what the consumer is searching for.

Also, would the 3 major networks care to comment, not sure if they publicly comment on forums but i would be interested to hear their comments on this particular issue?
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Old 10-07-2009, 09:11 AM
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I am an affiliate but had a similar conversation with a merchant recently.

They sold a product, which I was interested in selling also through their affiliate link. They came back to me and said that as I didn't have an existing database of customers interested in that product they would simply be competing with me in the search engines and paying commissions to me when they didn't have to.

I checked Google and they ranked well for a number of search terms related to this product. But they only had one listing out of 10 every time. 9 competitors vs 1 of them. Even if you are #1 I don't like those odds. If I was a merchant I would rather fill all 10 spots on the front page of Google.

Surely as a merchant you are better occupying as much of the front page of Google as possible to block out your competitors, even if it means paying out some affiliate commissions on some, even many, of the sales.
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Old 10-07-2009, 09:28 AM
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To Merchants: Would you as a merchant want affiliates heavily bidding on your trademark to appear higher in the rankings given you probably rank number one anyways and would have probably got the sale if this is what the consumer is searching for.
I also represent a small number of merchants.

For them, I want affiliates to be working as hard as they can to make sure that my merchant's message is first. After all, that is what we have affiliates for.

Affiliate pages do not appear above the merchants anyway, no matter how poorly the merchant's homepage is constructed.

"Would have probably got the sale" -- Not necessarily, although the merchant's site is first and being on top has its advantages, an affiliate beneath may have learned of more attractive way to display a particular product. Is that a bad thing? Isn't that why you are paying affiliates in the first place?
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Old 10-07-2009, 09:32 AM
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"Would have probably got the sale"
I'd sure rather be #1 than #2 in Google, but just because you're number 1 doesn't guarantee a click and most definitely doesn't guarantee a sale. I know that's stating the plainly obvious....but thought I'd mention it anyway.
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:18 AM
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:27 AM
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If you use a registered trademark without the owner's permission you are heading for legal trouble if they decide to protect their property as they have full legal recourse - that's why they register them!
Lid ,

Are you saying that a blogger is not allowed to use the words "American Express" side-by-side?
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:47 AM
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:00 PM
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The biggest difference between ppc and seo is that ppc is under the affiliate's control and they quite deliberately choose where and how they appear. That makes it easier to have hard rules like, you can do that , you can't do this, you must place certain terms as negative keywords, etc.

With SEO, you need to look at what the affiliate is doing, why they are doing it, and what effect it has.

Interestingly, newbie found a merchant's name where merchant had top position and there was a BCL page right below it. That page, which has been online for many years, isn't heavily seo'd for babyexpress (look further down the google page for those) and isn't likely to lure a reader who types in babyexpress down past the first listing (assuming they skip the brandbidder). Our page has a reason for being that has nothing to do with seo and google - which might be why it ranks higher than the ones lower down ;-). Readers who get to our "about the merchant" pages do not get there via google. I know that because I have access to the stats.

As Jim said, in SEO, the merchant's listing should always appear at the top, above affiliates' listings if someone types in their name. So affiliates who are targetting the already-converted customer aiming for the shop have an extra task. They must lure the reader past the merchant's natural listing to click on theirs - which is why getting 10 spots on the page is a bit of a furphy.

The obvious examples of affiliates who seo on merchants names/URLs with the aim of luring the customers past the merchants listing are the coupon sites. Try anymerchantURLyoulike coupon and you'll see them.

Again, it is not as simple as saying all coupon sites are bad. There are some very genuine coupon sites which have an established base of customers and work closely with merchants. The coupons they promote are authorised by the merchant and often exclusive to that affiliate - and sometimes there's a commission split so the merchant doesn't get hit by a double whammy (commission+discount)

By contrast, the dodgy coupon sites are not at all interested in working with the merchants, they just use the terms to target customers who are checking to see if there is a coupon (often half way through the cart on another window and prompted by a box on the merchant's own site asking if they have a coupon code). For these websites, getting the cookie laid so they get commission is the aim, and the validity of coupons and effect on the merchant is irrelevant.

So, just as the brandbidding ppc affiliates can harm the perception of genuine ppc affiliates who get additional sales, so too can dodgy affiliates harm the perception of coupon sites as a whole.

So, Shopping King, I think the answer is not as clearcut as it is with brandbidding.

Perhaps the easiest way to decide is to consider who benefits from any particular practice.

As merchants are the ones who are paying, affiliates and networks should provide benefits to the merchant (eg extra sales and customers, cost-effective advertising) if they want the merchant to continue the program. (Tracked sales does not necessarily equal extra sales.) Of course, the affiliate needs to make a profit too - the challenge is in creating, and maintaining a win-win. If either the merchant, the affiliate or even the network, don't get fair benefit from the relationship, they are within their rights to refuse to continue.

re the 10 listings furphy: Some merchants might be happy to pay affiliates to target their name to block out negative reviews but, as an affiliate, I'd ask whether I really wanted to promote that merchant.
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:34 PM
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Yep - I guess that one was just a fluke.

Oh wait, here are a couple more, I am gobsmacked:

growinggifts - Google Search

picture store - Google Search

bockersandpony - Google Search

rushfaster - Google Search

alittleluxury - Google Search

rydadotcom - Google Search

If you are just starting out and researching how onpage optimisation works, you can use these as a reference. Excellent work, you will not find better.

I thought the following example was especially noteworthy. Note how the inclusion of a "goldcoast" folder can actually put you on TOP of the merchant.

adrenalin gold coast - Google Search
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by newbie View Post
Yep - I guess that one was just a fluke.

Oh wait, here are a couple more, I am gobsmacked:

growinggifts - Google Search

picture store - Google Search

bockersandpony - Google Search

rushfaster - Google Search

alittleluxury - Google Search

rydadotcom - Google Search

If you are just starting out and researching how onpage optimisation works, you can use these as a reference. Excellent work, you will not find better.

I thought the following example was especially noteworthy. Note how the inclusion of a "goldcoast" folder can actually put you on TOP of the merchant.

adrenalin gold coast - Google Search
Thank you so much for your thoughtful response to a complex issue, Jim. But if you bother actually reading and thinking about what I've said, it doesn't really matter if I appear as number 2, because the title tag and meta descriptions are not designed to lure away from the natural listings.

I am sorry if our pages tend to rank very highly (higher than yours) even when I'm not trying (when you are). So, yes there is the lesson for new people - forget google and fancy seo tricks, just create pages for your readers.

adrenalin gold coast - Google Search
was a surprise to me - not sure who searches for adrenalin gold coast or exactly what sort of excitement they are searching for. BTW adrenalin is a generic term, but if Adrenalin ever have an issue with that page, I am sure they'll tell me.

(Isn't there some sort of double standard here - you're trying to accuse me of doing something bad that you say is fine for everyone else to do?)

Perhaps you'd be happier if I just put a noindex in my robots.txt file.
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:20 PM
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adrenalin gold coast - Google Search
was a surprise to me - not sure who searches for adrenalin gold coast or exactly what sort of excitement they are searching for.
There you go again.

You win, you have got me in stitches, I will be giggling all weekend.
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:22 PM
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These are very good questions...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shopping King View Post
Hello All,

I would just like to ask everyone’s opinion on whether it is an acceptable/ethical/legal practice in affiliate marketing to heavily include a company’s Brandword (trademark) when doing SEO and building one's pages?
Acceptable - depends who you ask. I guess everyone has to decide what is acceptable to them and act accordingly. eg, drop affiliates, drop programs etc.

Ethical - the hard part is drawing the line. It's easy enough to look at extreme examples of seo targetting by sites that don't offer any value and say it is unethical, at the other extreme I can't put the name of a shop on my pages without google picking it up and Jim making his wild assertions.

Legal - until proven otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shopping King View Post
Is this ok for affiliate's to do and should Affiliate Networks allow this to happen?


The question of the affiliate networks' responsibility keeps cropping up.

I know many merchants have expected the networks to be more proactive but this is not necessarily possible or practical - especially if merchants don't always agree on what is acceptable.

I think it is a mistake for a merchant to abdicate all responsibility to the network, just as you don't abdicate all your responsibility to your accountant or any other service provider.

However, I think networks do have a responsibility to their customers (the merchants) to provide them with a service which includes helping them tackle these issues, and a duty to assist their merchants in identifying affiliates who breach their terms and conditions.

Above all they should be honest in their marketing. Don't say it is no risk when it isn't. Don't push the getting your links on good websites line and omit to tell them about the others.
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:40 PM
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There you go again.

You win, you have got me in stitches, I will be giggling all weekend.
Yes, I thought that was slightly amusing - not nearly as amusing as the list of organic keywords that www. keywordspy. com. au says that you are targetting.
(Certain proof that you can't assume what someone is targetting from the outside.)

So how about actually addressing the issue properly?
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Last edited by bcl; 10-07-2009 at 03:27 PM.. Reason: oops - typed can assume, meant can't assume - unless you read it in an ironic tone
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